Beginning

Klayton 0:00

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Klayton 0:21

Welcome to the World Kiln Podcast, where we discuss everything world building. I'm Klayton Korstjens, a world builder of 30 + years, from multiple D&D settings, including home to the eight-year-long campaign I DM, to my 25-year passion project book series.

Tim 0:40

And I'm Tim Harris, author of the Aelaryn Saga and passionate world builder, consumer, and designer. On this podcast, we'll share our ideas, our breakthroughs, and the lessons we've learned in our experiences as world builders.

In this episode...

Klayton 0:53

In this episode, we'll be discussing general world building. Starting with "What does world building mean to you?" Let's get into the build. So, Tim, I'm going to direct this one to you first. What does world building mean to you?

Tim's Definition

Tim 1:11

Well, I think the biggest thing would be is that people that are interacting with the world, feel like they're in it. So having your buildings, like your history, your cultures, the beliefs, geography, you want to make sure that it influences one another. Making sure that there is a reason behind what behind everything that you're doing. There's a reason behind it. And that it's not you're not just creating something just for the sake of creating, right? I don't know if you run into that too much, but you

Klayton 2:04

Quite a bit actually.

Tim 2:06

So edge creating the different histories and cultures kind of deciding like why are you doing this? Like, what is the reason behind it? Um, so that when people do interact it, whether that's through reading a book, um, or through playing a D&D game, you know, like when we're doing it. Um, I think a lot of it is just making sure that the person who's in it feels engaged in it and they don't feel like there's just no reason. Like, what what why am I in the city when it doesn't really feel real, right? You gotta make it real, like like real world. You there's there's a history behind every city, there's a culture behind every city, there's resources behind it. Um, you know, what makes that city's believable, right? You're in the city on the coast, and you're gonna have these, you know, igloos. That doesn't make sense, right? I mean, you're gonna find something that the reason behind if it has heavy rainfall, you know, you're gonna have a different type of roof than you would if you have complete sun, you know, um, there's not a lot of rain. You know, you're also gonna have that depending on the windfall, the weather, the and and again, it's also gonna believe be believable on what kind of resources are in that area. Like you're not gonna have a whole bunch of trees out in the snow, so you're not gonna have a lot of wooden buildings, but again, you're gonna have a lot of people. Right. So you want to make the area be believable. Um, what do you

Klayton's Definition

Tim 3:45

think?

Klayton 3:46

Um, well, world building means a lot to me. Um you know, as as you know, I've done it most of my life, and it's it's such a passion of mine. So to me, world building is a creation in its absolute purest form. Because you're you're taking a concept, you're taking a thought, and you're giving it substance. You're giving it tangibility, right? And not like the physical tangibility, right? I'm not talking like something's physically tangible, like my notebook is it's tangible, it's real, it's here, but you're creating a reality of your own, and you're able to, you're generating something from nothing, which in and of itself is just creation, right?

Tim 4:44

Right.

Klayton 4:44

And when you break down world building by itself, the term world building, you are building a world from the ground up, right? Now, the extent to which you build that world is it varies, right? Like, you don't need to know what a character's genealogy dating back, you know, seven generations if it's a short story, unless it is pertinent to the story, right? If the short story is about something that happened with that ancestor seven generations ago, okay, yeah, you're gonna might need to know a little bit about that, right? Um, but for the most part, you don't need to be grandiose in your design. It's all about building what is necessary. Um sometimes, and I will admit this, and I know this is a little..., probably gonna get some hate mail for this, sometimes building something with no backbone is okay. Building something arbitrary, something just to as a placeholder to just put there because you needed it for a quick scene, that's okay. You don't need not everything needs to have real depth of feel, right? Right. Um there's there there's so much to be said about, conceptually, what world building is. Um but I think again to me the the first of major thing is its creation as pure as form, right? Another thing for me in terms of what it is,

Escapism through Design

Klayton 6:37

right, is it's escapism through design. Because you are in you are being intentional about how you create something that somebody is going to use as a way to temporarily take themselves out of their reality and into into what it is that you've made. Whether it be just for you, right? It doesn't world building ...

Tim 7:13

That's just like reading a book. I mean, it's it's literally for you in that case. Like you're not reading it necessarily with a bunch of other people, you're reading it because you want to be outside that. That's not saying like you know, playing a D&D campaign. That's not necessarily gonna be just you in that campaign. You are all gonna be interacting with that world, and hopefully you guys are gonna change that world together, you know, and that's that's part of what I think with world

Interacting with the world

Tim 7:42

building is that it's exciting, it's something that you guys can change together, and you guys can make it grow together. That's why I think I believe that what you said about having things there that you don't need to build the full world. You don't have to have the full history, you just need to have what the what the what the readers, the viewers, the people interacting with your world, what they're gonna notice. Because, especially if you're playing the game, they want to be the ones to change something. You know, you go in and you destroy something or you help create something in the world, you want to come back to that, even if you are in a whole new campaign in that same world and you've come 20 years later, you're like, you know what? My characters did that. My characters built this church, you know, my characters destroyed that tavern and then burned it down. You know, hey, I remember when that happened, you know, like and

Klayton 8:39

case in point what you guys did to the tavern,

Tim 8:44

yeah, with the with the Red Brands

Klayton 8:45

Specifically with Angels' character.

Tim 8:48

And he just could he's the one who started it, and yet he could not clear it. Every could not burn it.

Klayton 8:56

I see you sitting over there shaking your head, Adam.

Tim 9:00

But case in point, like those characters you want to be able to change that. And if you build, say you could build everything, and it was great. You know, if your characters or those people can't relate to that world or they can't change it, people don't want to interact with it. Um, they don't want to be part of that. Um, so I think that part of this is making sure that interacting with the world is a huge part of what what it means to world build is that you want, you know, the people that are it's it's not just for you per se when you're building the world. You want other people to enjoy your world, you want other people to interact with it, you want those people to help change it. And I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that have a lot of control and they just they don't want changes, they want their world to be exactly the way it is. But even in the real world, even here, every single person changes it somehow. They do something, it changes, something adjusts. So I feel like you know, it's not just about the person who's creating the world, but it's also about everybody you're creating it for, people that are gonna interact with it.

Klayton 10:24

Oh yeah, 100%. 100%. I I completely agree with that. I okay,

Technical Difficulties (oops!)

Klayton 10:29

sorry about that. Had a little bit of technical difficulty to fix a couple things with our cameras. Anyway, back to uh so what we were talking about, what I had mentioned

Escapism through Design pt.2

Klayton 10:40

was one of the things that world building means is escapism through design. Right? Um there's massive IPs that everybody knows, right? Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings. People know what D &D is. Those who those of us who play it know how big it is. The the designs for different modules and the worlds and campaign settings that they have. Um like those are so big. Star Wars, another one, Star Wars, Star Trek, huge worlds, right? But from those worlds that were designed, one if you look at Star Trek, that was an ever-expanding world as episodes grew. Right? If you look at the original series, um, people to this day can tell you who their favorite character is, can tell you what the different color of the shirts mean, in Star Trek. There are people who can break down episodes of consistency, of inconsistencies like they get so caught up in the in the the minutiae, and it is it's become such a alternate reality, for lack of a better word. An alternate reality for them that it has created uh it's created their own like their own game systems. Right? So all the ones that I mentioned Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Star Trek, um Harry Potter, those are all tabletop RPGs.

Tim 12:41

Yep, I'm pretty sure I've seen most of those where I've even looked at a few of those to see how they would.

Klayton 12:46

D&D, RPG. That's, that's what we all that's what the three of us all know and love, right? That's what we all play. Um but the the fact that somebody was able to design

Tim 13:00

the gaming concept for

Klayton 13:02

well not not just that, but but design a world that became so beloved that people then took that and wanted to be able to play in that world.

Brennen Lee Mulligan's Quote

Klayton 13:25

Right? Uh, Brennan Lee, Brennan Lee Mulligan, right? Uh he is an amazing DM. He's a fantastic world builder, too. If you look at Dimension 20, you look at the things that he's the the different seasons that he's done. Fantastic world builder. Uh there's an episode on YouTube of, it was put on by, I think it was college humor. But Brennan Brennan Lee Mulligan is is essentially he's interviewing Matt Mercer. Right. This this was back in like season one of Critical Role. Wait a minute, season one or season two? I think it was season one. And they're talking one of the things that that Brennan Lee Mulligan said, and he was talking about like the the conversation was was going in like what people know and and like the depth that people go as far as like immersion into those worlds. He was talking about Harry Potter, and he goes, "There are people to this day who can tell you what their house is."

Tim 14:34

Oh, yeah. Like, I can tell you mine.

Klayton 14:36

I can tell you mine. Like,

Great Worldbuilders

Klayton 14:38

but that was all that was all out of J. K. Rowling's mind. Like, she created all of this, and that's that to me is like ultimate world building. When you're when you can see yourself either living in that world or wanting to know more about it outside of the story that it's set that's set in that world, that's world building.

Tim 15:04

I can't agree anymore. That's there's a few of those worlds where you just you keep wanting to know more. You know, uh just like Westeros from George R. R. Martin. I mean, honestly, I kind of want to keep going and see where the rest of the world is. He's got little parts of it, but he doesn't have the full aspect. But he's he gives bits and pieces of different different continents and different things like that that you don't even see in the Song of Ice Empire or Game of Thrones in the series of the show.

Klayton 15:34

Yeah,

Tolkien Nerd-out

Klayton 15:35

yeah, yeah.

Tim 15:35

You know, um, there's a there's a few. I mean, I think everybody absolutely loves Lord of the Rings, and everybody wants more and more of that. Not that, you know, Tolkien's still around, but his son's been creating more of the stuff that he's left

Klayton 15:51

oh Christopher, yeah.

Tim 15:52

Of yeah, of his his manuscripts of things that he's put together, and and I'm sure he's got a lot.

Klayton 15:58

But Tolkien was inhuman. In his world building, like legitimately inhuman.

Tim 16:08

He definitely started with like I don't feel like he even started with one little thing. I think he started with one, like

Klayton 16:16

there are book, there are books. I don't know if you know that maybe you do. I I don't know, but there are books that are written that were written later about just additional stories that he wrote, like short stories that he had written that take place in um Middle Earth or

Tim 16:39

The Lost Tales.

Klayton 16:40

Yes, there's two of those.

Tim 16:42

Yes, yeah. There's actually another Tales, I think. Uh it's not called The Lost Tales, there was something else.

Klayton 16:48

but no, there's like four other books. Yeah. Aside from The Silmarillion, which by the way is, I love that book, but it is so hard to read.

Tim 16:58

It's because his his the way he writes, it's it is detail, it's all detail-oriented, you know.

Klayton 17:06

It's an encyclopedia with a story somewhere in there.

Tim 17:09

It is, but you get so much information, you understand so much about his world.

Klayton 17:14

Oh, there's there like

Tim 17:16

and yet you don't know it all for sure.

Klayton 17:18

No, no, and and I'm the thing that blows my mind about Tolkien and everything that he created is you know there was more that that man never wrote down.

Tim 17:29

Oh, yeah.

Klayton 17:30

There was more to that world and the histories and everything that that happened in the in that world that that man never wrote down.

Tim 17:40

I think I read something. Um there's another uh show or or podcast, I guess, that they're doing um that I've kind of watched, and they do different things on um you know, The Witcher, George R. R. Martin, uh you know, Tolkien stuff. And he even mentioned that in some of his books, he's actually wrote little snippets about the fourth, the fifth, the sixth age. And he actually mentioned something about the sixth age being actually our age, like us right now. Like he actually went into a story about how that is actually when like the sixth age is actually where he's at right now, which would have been what the the 40s, the 50s, you know, around that time frame. So he's like, and each, and he it didn't from what I understood, there wasn't a huge like time frame in between each one. Like, I think it's you know, probably like a 3,000-year difference, maybe, or a couple of thousand-year difference. But he did mention that the world that he created is our world. It's actually like it it it makes complete sense that Middle -Earth is our world.

Klayton 18:56

Well, and he, if I remember correctly, one of the things that he had said was he had started develop well, first off, he has started coming up with the ideas for Middle -Earth in the trenches in World War I.

Tim 19:08

Right.

Klayton 19:08

Um, and he was um writing little stories and and ideas, and you know, uh mixed in there was also when he found the Book of Finnish, of Finnish language, and it then his brain, being a professor of linguistics, his brain started dissecting and it's like this is a beautiful language, and that's where he started coming up with the language for the elves. Um but one of the driving motivators for him was he wanted this world of he wanted to create this world that had lore and history and folk tale stuff that, if I remember correctly, he said like wasn't a thing in England. Like the he didn't remember having, and I could I I could be misquoting this, but he wanted to write and create folk tales and lore and legends that England didn't have. And that was where that was why it Middle-Earth sprawled into this historical expanse, and why there's why there is so much about the elves, and there's so much history about the elves and legends, and you know, even going through like the Lord of the Rings books, they make reference back to um to historical events or myths that occurred at some point in the world's history. Um the example I can think of off the top of my head is I don't I'm not 100% sure. I think it's Aragorn who mentions it, but I could be wrong. Uh Baron and Luthien.

Tim 21:17

Yeah.

Klayton 21:18

Um, which is about the love between a human and an elf. Right? But this but the the story of Baron and Luthien takes place in the Silmarillion. Like he wrote about it in the Silmarillion. Um or

Tim 21:35

he actually wrote a book about that too. With with Baron, I think it was with Baron. Um that actually went through the whole history. I think it was still in the first age. And they had a lot of people.

Klayton 21:48

Yes, because it's Melkor. Morgoth.

Tim 21:55

Morgoth, yeah.

Klayton 21:55

Morgoth is Morgoth was the name that the elves gave to Melkor, who you know was. The first Dark Lord, but um yes, because I think it ties directly the story of Baron and Luthien tied directly to Morgoth.

Tim 22:09

Yes, because I think they ended up having to go get um one of the Silmarils.

Klayton 22:15

One of the Silmarils

Tim 22:16

he went to go get it, she actually saved it.

Klayton 22:20

Yes, that yes, yes.

Tim 22:22

But he ended up dying.

Klayton 22:25

It's been a while since I've read it.

Tim 22:27

It's been a while for me too. Um

Back to the Program!

Tim 22:29

but I mean, really to get back to what world building means. I mean you could tell that with his, like, he built it for people you know, for people to enjoy, for people to love, you know. And like you said, probably for, you know, to to give that history, that that you know, all those folk tales for people that you know, because they didn't have it.

Klayton 22:56

Uh and and that's that to me, again, that's where that's what world building is. Creating creation its purest form, creating something from nothing, but developing something that you can feel, that feels real, that when you immerse yourself in it or when you take part in it, you yourself can see yourself being a part

Introducing Tarildor

Klayton 23:27

of it.

Tim 23:28

Why do you think that every single time we talk about this, like anytime you want to talk about Tarildor, I'm like, dude, I want to know more about this. Like, what's going on with this? Like, where where where are these like five liches? Like, how did they become these things? Like, what was the history of these Altaens? Like, what's going on with all this? Like, you have so much of that same Tolkien feel. Like, the world, and uh yet, you know, um

Klayton 23:56

so for those for just for those listening, Tarildor is my homebrew campaign setting that I designed, and I've been working on it for eight years now. Um, that I personally designed for our D &D campaign that that I DM for.

Tim 24:14

And um, and there is probably uh I can't say as much history as Tolkien has put in there, but you are being eight years into it, you've gotten a good portion going.

Introducing Y'ya

Tim 24:28

And you know what? Your your world of Y'ya, that one I could say would be a lot closer to what you have with Tolkien, like the the history you have behind it, the characters you have behind it, and the fact that it's not even it's not even just human-based. Like it's not just like your standard elven, human, dwarven. Yours has got completely different characters that nobody's ever heard of. Stuff that you've created on your own.

Klayton 24:57

Oh, like the different races and stuff?

Tim 24:58

Yeah, the different races, you know, that you have for the different elemental races and things like that that you have.

Klayton 25:04

Oh, the Tharonad?

Tim 25:04

the Mydar, um, the Mydar-Rei'a. I mean, even though they're similar, they're not the same.

Klayton 25:11

No, no, they're not.

Tim 25:13

You know, the different types of different types of gods that you have that you've created throughout that whole project, you know, there's just so much you put into that. The the the type of magic that's in there, the wizards that you do have, the fact that not all people have that magical ability, but each one has their own. I mean, like you think of the elementals. You have elemental magic, you have your other magic, but not everybody can use it, not everybody can have it. Um and that's hard. I mean, that's a thing that a lot of people are like, well, uh uh magic's cool, like I want to see more of that. Um the different dragon races and things like that, the fact that they're hidden, things like that that you have. You know, you put a lot into it, and honestly, it's it's just as engaging to listen to you talk about the worlds that you've created as it is to be engaged into a uh the world of Tolkien, you know. Um maybe a lot of people for Star Trek, Star Wars, you know, uh Harry Potter. I mean, honestly, it's you always want to know more

Some D&D Experiences

Tim 26:23

about it, especially being in the D&D campaign with Tarildor. Like, you always want to know more about what you're exploring as you're exploring it. You're like, oh, this is so cool. Like, I know more about this. But a lot of the times, like even when I'm playing, I'm like, I know all about this. My character has no idea, but I'm so excited. You get to that point where you start showing something off, and you're like, oh, and this is this is what's going on. And then I know you see it because you're like, you see it right on my face, you're like, he just got it. It's like, whoa! And then I'm like, I know what that is. I realized like, what is he talking about? You know?

Klayton 27:04

Well, how many times have we had the conversation? You, Tim, know exactly what we're talking about. Malark, on the other hand, not so much.

Tim 27:12

But at the same time, it's still it's still exciting to know that as you know something about the world, you pop something in there that maybe not my character has known, but you do, and it's that's exhilarating at the same time. So to understand the different things that world building means is also not just the person building the world, but for me, interacting with the world that you build means a lot too, because that's amazing to be able to be a part of a world that someone else has created and know that you're learning new things, you're you're you're changing that world, you're making it better. Or you're maybe you're making it worse. I mean, you know what? You

Klayton 28:00

yeah, I guess that entirely depends on the type of campaign you're running. I mean, so it's it's exciting. And I think for the most part being a part of that being part of a world-building world, um, and even helping build that in a way, uh, it means a lot.  

Wrapping it up

Klayton 28:26

Want to wrap this up?

Tim 28:27

Okay.

Klayton 28:28

All right. We want to thank you for listening to this episode of The World Kiln Podcast.

Tim 28:33

Please tell us your thoughts on "what does world building mean to you?" in the comment section.

Klayton 28:38

We'd love to hear the different methods, ideas, and techniques you use to build your worlds.

Tim 28:44

If you like what you heard, subscribe to the podcast wherever you're listening to get notified on of new episodes.

Klayton 28:52

And don't forget to head over to our website, theworldkiln.com, and subscribe to our email list to get notified of new episodes, exclusive info and offers, and additional world building tips.

Tim 29:04

And as a bonus, and our way of saying thanks for signing up, we'll send you our step-by-step fill-in checklist for building believable settlements, whether that be a small village or a bustling metropolis.

Klayton 29:17

So remember to stay creative,

Tim 29:19

keep forging,

Both 29:20

and we'll see you in the next build.